Gospel Conversations
Gospel Conversations
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Five ways to reframe the gospel - Gospel in Exodus part 4
In this final talk, I summarise five profound ways that the Exodus narrative reframes and stretches the traditional gospel of Penal Substitution. My aim was to leave us with a metaphor that can rival the evocative power of the Penal model not just critique it systematically. In my experience, the Exodus story does this and that is what i want to share in this talk.
One thing that the Exodus story does is to stretch out the redemption story across a complex landscape of the battle with Pharoah and Egypt. So it leaves us with an extended metaphor or analogy, not just a single idea. But that is okay and I think it works in our favour, since one of the insights about redemption that we have developed is that ‘salvation’ is a vast and multi-faceted act of God in his relation with creation.
I organise the analogies using the five dramatic terms of Kenneth Burke, and I think it works well. I created a table to capture the comparisons and I organised the talk using that table. I will post it on the Gospel Conversations website.
One of the texts that I allude to is the important book by Richard Gaffin called ‘Redemption and Resurrection’. Look at it as he critiqued traditional redemption models as having limited space for Resurrection.
I hope this talk and the whole series have blessed you and keep provoking thought as it has for me.
view more at gospelconversations.com
Переглядів: 103

Відео

Drama and the humble God
Переглядів 176Місяць тому
Here is the third talk in our journey through Exodus as an analogy of redemption. In this talk we explore Exodus through the lens of drama. Of course, the whole Bible is in essence a drama in that it is a narrative or story grounded in events rather than abstract ideas. So we have to discern the ideas that the story generates. And in a way that is not a closed book - simply because the ideas ar...
'Salvation' as re creation - What is the gospel? part. 2
Переглядів 212Місяць тому
Welcome back to Gospel Conversations. So on with the Exodus journey as we 'cross the river and start to generate some new paradigms for the gospel. I like the term 'paradigm' as it does explain what we are trying to do rather well. A paradigm is a way of looking at something or a way of arranging it in our minds. So it is a 'pattern'. In a sense it is very different from 'content. It is much mo...
The gospel according to Exodus
Переглядів 254Місяць тому
Welcome to a new series called ‘What is the Gospel?’ It builds on the ‘Cross and Creation’ talks that Andrew and I gave. Those talks explored difficulties in the traditional ‘Penal Substitution Model’ but in a sense they left us with a void - what alternative image(s) can replace the Penal model. This is what we now move onto with the ‘What is the gospel’ series. First cab off the rank is “The ...
Cross and Creation 7 - Which model fits best?
Переглядів 3147 місяців тому
In this episode of our Cross and Creation series, Andrew continues his summarising of the metaphors for the atonement. He argues that every metaphor has its limits and cannot be pushed universally. But he argues that the adoption/sonship model of the atonement offers the best fit for the various metaphors, and that the alternative wrath of God/judicial model narrows and even distorts the grand ...
Breakfast with Jesus - Episode 21 - Circle of glory
Переглядів 3157 місяців тому
The very popular audio podcast "Breakfast with Jesus" will now become available on You Tube. The previous 20 episodes are available from your Podcast provider or from the Gospel Conversations website. In this talk Tony amplifies the intriguing phrase ‘Circle of Glory’ which David Bentley Hart mentioned in his final talk in our recent GC series. The phrase was coined by Gregory of Nyssa and Tony...
GC Conference - Session 5 - An Incarnational Cosmos
Переглядів 4,6 тис.8 місяців тому
Session 5 - What is humanity’s destiny and purpose? Is heaven more like a marriage or a motel visit? In this final talk, David advocates the age-old vision of the Patristics that ‘God became human in order that humanity may become God’. This breathtaking vision is at once completely orthodox, but almost sounds blasphemous. Together Tony and David explore this vision of ‘deification’ through the...
GC Conference - Session 4 - A Divine Anthropology
Переглядів 3,4 тис.8 місяців тому
Session 4 - Is the Incarnation a master plan or a rescue plan? David builds on his epic book ‘YOU ARE GODS’ in this session, and widens our view of the incarnation from being a one-off rescue plan, to the master plan for all humanity. Clearly this is an intriguing thought, but it takes some deep conceptual shifts to absorb and that is what Tony and David dive into in the latter half of this fas...
GC Conference - Session 3 - A Cosmic Anthropology
Переглядів 4,4 тис.8 місяців тому
Session 3 - Has the ‘supernatural/natural’ dualism messed up our view of creation? David explains how both religious and secular thinking share a common dualism that distorts our view of reality. For the religious mind, the supernatural God becomes totally separate from the world of nature which it sees as material and fallen. So David and Tony turn to the mesmerising thought of Maximus the Con...
GC Conference - Session 2 - The Religious View of Sinners
Переглядів 5 тис.8 місяців тому
Session 2 - Has ‘original sin’ distorted the Christian view of humanity? Augustine’s doctrine of original sin eventually became ‘total depravity’ and it assumes that humans are intrinsically bad and cannot desire the good. It has become the pervasive anthropology of much of Christianity - but is it right? David and Tony explore the alternative view through the theology of the great Nicholas of ...
GC Conference - Session 1 Is the Mind a Machine?
Переглядів 8 тис.8 місяців тому
Session 1 - Is the mind a machine? Nothing is more topical than the spectre of ‘artificial intelligence’ and the grim picture of humanity it suggests. David uses our experience of thought and language to demolish the fallacies behind this mechanistic picture of thinking. But he does not end there. He lifts our vision of language from a personal experience to a participation in something bigger ...
PLC - Pamela Nutt Address - David Bentley Hart
Переглядів 1,9 тис.8 місяців тому
The 2023 Pamela Nutt lecture, sponsored by PLC, Sydney. David Bentley Hart addresses the subject, "What does Beauty tell us about God?"
Cross and Creation 6 - Metaphors
Переглядів 1558 місяців тому
In this latest edition in the Cross and Creation series, Tony and Andrew explore some of the metaphors for what happened at Calvary. None of them really fit the Penal Substitution metaphor. They range over several metaphors like reconciliation, and redemption, but focus in on adoption and dominion; Calvary was the great battle for dominion of the cosmos, and we are adopted into that kingship wo...
Indigenous spirituality and the gospel; surprising connections. With David Bentley Hart.
Переглядів 8 тис.9 місяців тому
In this panel discussion, two Christian indigenous leaders explain some of their spiritual heritage and how they have found deep resonances with the creation gospel in them. David Hart joins in, and explains that, far from being heretical, their views are close to the original views on creation developed by the church Fathers - and in particular the brilliant 7th century theologian Maximus the ...
David Bentley Hart on Suffering
Переглядів 13 тис.10 місяців тому
David Bentley Hart on Suffering This is the first talk from David Bentley Hart during his visit to Australia. He addresses the vexed topic of suffering based on his book ‘The Doors of the Sea’. This talk is followed by a long series of questions which take the topic - and David’s views - deeper and more personal.
The Cross and Creation Part 5 - Anselm
Переглядів 27011 місяців тому
The Cross and Creation Part 5 - Anselm
Introducing the Gospel Conversations 2023 conference with David Bentley Hart
Переглядів 1,4 тис.11 місяців тому
Introducing the Gospel Conversations 2023 conference with David Bentley Hart
The Cross and Creation Part 4 - The Sacrifice of Isaac
Переглядів 21611 місяців тому
The Cross and Creation Part 4 - The Sacrifice of Isaac
The Cross and Creation - Part 3 - Dominion
Переглядів 229Рік тому
The Cross and Creation - Part 3 - Dominion
The Cross and Creation - Part 2 - What are the challenges in creation?
Переглядів 345Рік тому
The Cross and Creation - Part 2 - What are the challenges in creation?
The Cross and Creation - Part 1 - What are the questions?
Переглядів 689Рік тому
The Cross and Creation - Part 1 - What are the questions?
Matt Clarke and Disrupting Mercy
Переглядів 241Рік тому
Matt Clarke and Disrupting Mercy
2022 Conference - Esther Meek - The Real Inviting Us
Переглядів 242Рік тому
2022 Conference - Esther Meek - The Real Inviting Us
2022 Conference - Esther Meek - Inviting the Real
Переглядів 302Рік тому
2022 Conference - Esther Meek - Inviting the Real
2022 Conference - Esther Meek - Love and Subsidiary Focal Integration
Переглядів 253Рік тому
2022 Conference - Esther Meek - Love and Subsidiary Focal Integration
2022 Conference - Esther Meek - How Integration works
Переглядів 312Рік тому
2022 Conference - Esther Meek - How Integration works
2022 Conference - Esther Meek - How Knowing works - Subsidiary Focal Integration
Переглядів 502Рік тому
2022 Conference - Esther Meek - How Knowing works - Subsidiary Focal Integration
2022 Conference - Esther meek - The Crisis of Meaning
Переглядів 744Рік тому
2022 Conference - Esther meek - The Crisis of Meaning
2022 Conference - Sarah Golsby-Smith - Romanticism and Knowing
Переглядів 364Рік тому
2022 Conference - Sarah Golsby-Smith - Romanticism and Knowing
2022 Conference - Mark Strom - Paul on Faith Hope & Love as ways of Knowing
Переглядів 396Рік тому
2022 Conference - Mark Strom - Paul on Faith Hope & Love as ways of Knowing

КОМЕНТАРІ

  • @danielcere2557
    @danielcere2557 11 днів тому

    Trinity is a false doctrine

  • @ericday4505
    @ericday4505 20 днів тому

    Would it be fun or difficult to have a friend as brilliant as DBH, I love the guy but it has to be difficult to have a friend of his ilk, truly brilliant and he challenges you to be smart too, as to the brilliance of Augustine, and his writings, all one can say is wow !!!! Augustine and his work on the Trinity is simply amazing, a far as I am concerned, no one comes close to laying out that doctrine as thoroughly and compellingly as he does in his On The Trinity, translations are very important and you have to get a great version. City of God was just too difficult to grasp for me, however do yourself a favor and get his On the Trinity, Also Hart, and his earlier work Beauty Of The Infinite, is another book that is a must read, it is a difficult read, but you have to give it a look see, great book.

  • @SpacePonder
    @SpacePonder 22 дні тому

    One thing I think about if people are eternally separated from God then that would mean satan wins somewhat.

  • @larrymiller4
    @larrymiller4 Місяць тому

    Ultimately, God solves, or resolves, the question of life over death, but in the meantime, while we are here, He gives instruction that we have things to do. And not that those "things" determine our place or standing in eternity -- that question is God's business. "Our" business is that we are given hundreds of exhortations and innumerable impressions (we can call them promptings of the Spirit) that lead us into a particular manner of life, not least that of entering into a death of self, called "the dying of the Lord Jesus." 2 Cor. 4:7-11.

  • @mikefrench4787
    @mikefrench4787 Місяць тому

    Faith is believing God , believing The Truth John 14:6. 2 Timothy 3:16- 🤔 the philosopher takes In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth….God spoke…… God established…. And says “ yea but what if ? “ so you either believe God or you don’t. Just because you don’t understand the truth of all Scripture is the truth that doesn’t mean that it isn’t. Repent and believe The Lord Jesus Christ

  • @drummersagainstitk
    @drummersagainstitk Місяць тому

    Great to hear this man. Thank You.

  • @diamondlife-gi7hg
    @diamondlife-gi7hg Місяць тому

    “This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance. For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, Who is the Savior of ALL men, especially of those who believe. These things command and teach.” (1 Tim. 4:9-11) THIS IS NOT THE ONLY SCRIPTURE THAT POINTS TO UNIVERSALISM. It wasn't condemned as heresy until 543 AD we know it was believed in before that. Origen was the most prolific one.

  • @joshblahnamehere2308
    @joshblahnamehere2308 Місяць тому

    All will be saved. Want proof? 1corinthians 15:22-23 For as in Adam ALL are dying, likewise in Christ shall ALL be made alive. But to each in the own order. See that first "ALL"? yeah, that sets the precedence for the following "ALL". Do you believe that first "ALL" is indeed everyone? Well so is the next "ALL". No one is going to be tortured for all of eternity. God is not going to lose one of his creations. There is an order to things, and God has a reason for bringing this truth to the rest later. All of christendom teaches MANY lies.

  • @AG-nu8ix
    @AG-nu8ix Місяць тому

    Does anyone in the internet know of an Christian Oneness Universalist theologian who does Not believe in the Trinity but in the Oneness Universalism ?

  • @AG-nu8ix
    @AG-nu8ix Місяць тому

    Does anyone know of an Christian Oneness Universalist theologian who is on the internet who teaches the Oneness Universalism ?

  • @AG-nu8ix
    @AG-nu8ix Місяць тому

    Does anyone know of an Christian Oneness Universalist theologian in the internet who does Not believe in the Trinity can you leave me a note ?

  • @AG-nu8ix
    @AG-nu8ix Місяць тому

    Does anyone know of an Christian Oneness Universalist theologian who is on the internet who does Not believe in the Trinity ?

  • @TheLouissusairaj
    @TheLouissusairaj 2 місяці тому

    Did you notice Rom 8:20

  • @HarryNicNicholas
    @HarryNicNicholas 2 місяці тому

    i see you have comments turned off for most of your videos, probably a good idea.

  • @HarryNicNicholas
    @HarryNicNicholas 2 місяці тому

    more pointless waffle about your imaginary friend.

  • @BirgerBosheinen
    @BirgerBosheinen 2 місяці тому

    Bra o 42:41

  • @BirgerBosheinen
    @BirgerBosheinen 2 місяці тому

    Bravo

  • @thomasshimelis2712
    @thomasshimelis2712 2 місяці тому

    This series is grate, learned a lot Thank you

  • @petewalsh4844
    @petewalsh4844 2 місяці тому

    He doesn't seem to understand the mistranslations. Not sure if he's thick as he even says these words get translated into hell. There is no fecking debate.

  • @ChrisSamuel1729
    @ChrisSamuel1729 3 місяці тому

    Is there a full version?

  • @nickjamesb2051
    @nickjamesb2051 3 місяці тому

    Interesting that you say not all biblical authors necessarily believed in universal salvation… in psalms, it seems to me that David oscillates between God inspired statements of universality, and his own base human emotions and desire for retribution on his enemies.

    • @nickjamesb2051
      @nickjamesb2051 3 місяці тому

      As though the book was authored both by God, and David. Also, when God says His ways are higher than our ways, the context is, God was contrasting the unrighteous and wicked with Himself, stating that He will freely pardon; implying that mankind is not like that. And we know how true that is. Mankind holds grudges like nobodies business.

    • @jcannan2
      @jcannan2 2 місяці тому

      True. Because most OT writers looked explicitly for the positive blessing and restoration of themselves and their own people and the destruction of their enemies. The OT is extremely biased toward it's authors and the Israelite people, which is to be expected as they are the ones who are writing it down from THEIR perspective (...and yet, you still find hints that God will save and loves all, even the gentiles).

  • @marlonpeiris9903
    @marlonpeiris9903 3 місяці тому

    CAN ANYONE GETS SAVED WHILE IN HEDEYS (SHEOLE)

  • @ProveAllThings1Th-5-21
    @ProveAllThings1Th-5-21 4 місяці тому

    1 Cor 6:9-10: Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind. Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God'. If one believes that these groups mentioned in these verses WILL inherit the kingdom of God, then just as the verse states, they have been deceived! Gal 6: 7-8 states again the 'be not deceived' warning: 'Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting'. Universalists are missing the final contrast here....corruption vs. life everlasting and how the passage states that what we sow to, determines our final outcome. Scripture teaches that sowing to the flesh brings us to corruption while sowing to the Spirit brings us life everlasting. However, if Universalism is true, this passage means nothing because Universalists say the opposite of what the Scriptures say. They preach another gospel saying that we can sow to the flesh and yet still reap everlasting life. This view is a mockery of God, and once again, those who believe this, have as the Scripture says, 'Been Deceived'. Take heed fellow humans.

  • @richardvorwald5478
    @richardvorwald5478 4 місяці тому

    Does remind of Keats & even Beatrix Potter artwork.

  • @ba.anderson
    @ba.anderson 4 місяці тому

    The scriptures declare that all of creation was made subject to vanity (futility KJV) against its will. - See Rom8:20. Why wouldn't he later likewise influence their belief in His word? Is this not a sign of mercy? Creation is bound to disobedience/unbelief until repentance is granted! (See Rom11:32 & 2Tim2:25)

  • @ba.anderson
    @ba.anderson 4 місяці тому

    Isa45:24 tells us everyone who's mad at Yahweh will day be ashamed of their anger towards Him. Is this not evidence of universal repentance? One day whatever seemed unfair or unjust from a human perspective will be revealed as glorious in accord with the absolute perspective. Isaiah 45:24 KJV(i) 24 Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.

  • @glenclary3231
    @glenclary3231 4 місяці тому

    Excellent talk! Recovering infernalist here. Keep up the good work.

  • @konstantinherion3140
    @konstantinherion3140 4 місяці тому

    Robin, thank you for all your work Regards from your brother in South-West of Germany. Lonesome christian life here having this big belief (a present) in your heart. One day would like to meet you

  • @pjdelucala
    @pjdelucala 5 місяців тому

    The word aionios means "eternal" in Greek and is used in the Bible. That word doesn’t mean unending. It means for an eon or a period of time. It means something that happens over and over within a certain period of time. Here is the precises definition on the internet: The Greek words aion and aionios, and the Hebrew equivalent olam, mean “age” and refer to a specific aeon, epoch or season. Although translated “eternal” and “everlasting”, they simply do not mean forever and ever. Einstein said: Insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result. That is what the word aionios refers to. For example: If you keep touching a hot stove, you will burn your hand. It will be eternal unless you stop touching the stove. Hell is the anguish you experience from experiencing negative emotions and situations. The fire in hell is the purging of the dross of that behavior and mental and spiritual attitude. The fire will continue until you change. Look at the story of the Prodigal Son. He suffered to the point where he said to himself enough is enough. He hit rock bottom and then turned his life around. Paul said this: “Jesus learned obedience from his suffering.” Same thing.

  • @zoarstamps
    @zoarstamps 5 місяців тому

    God’s word will not return void…He is not a liar. “I will be their God and they will be my people”. That is God’s purpose/desire. -exodus 6:7- Jeremiah 32:38-revelation 21:3. AMEN👏🏻

  • @racheladkins6060
    @racheladkins6060 5 місяців тому

    This is beautiful! Quantum physics is the key to understanding the universe and miracles humanity should be doing as naturally as Jesus Christ did.

  • @Loenthall88
    @Loenthall88 5 місяців тому

    Why did the wrong guy win? Isn't that the nature of life here on earth, where the wrong guy almost always wins?

  • @Jacke7111
    @Jacke7111 5 місяців тому

    No they just make the bible useless.

  • @pedrom8831
    @pedrom8831 6 місяців тому

    It boggles the mind how anyone could call late Augustine’s or Calvin’s cosmic visions ‘good news.’ This is some of the worst news imaginable. It is truly a fallen world which would allow such ideas to flourish. How anyone can worship this deity with an open heart and a clear conscience is utterly beyond me. It would be akin to a form of satanism.

  • @NoName-oy2tk
    @NoName-oy2tk 6 місяців тому

    I think there is probably a balance honestly. I do think there are truths in scripture, but I understand that I am a fallen child of Adam that is saved by Jesus Christ that struggles to understand it. I do think that there do seem some that do reject scripture all together or see it how they want, which I guess I am guilty of that too. I think there are some who are saying its putting God into a box if you think he can be contained in a book, but I would say that is also an interpretation of the world of somebody's mind. I just hold to scripture because I want to hold to some standard. However, it does humble you to think this way, because you have to realize you do not have a 100% understanding of it and cannot be authortative about it. Can only describe what you see there in.

  • @TheTheologizingSubject
    @TheTheologizingSubject 6 місяців тому

    Heresy

    • @TheTheologizingSubject
      @TheTheologizingSubject 5 місяців тому

      @@eremiasranwolf3513 Yeah the central message of the gospel is a pretty important hill to die on.

  • @traildude7538
    @traildude7538 6 місяців тому

    I've known so many Christians who actually love the idea of Hell and that other people will be sent there -- it's sad. We know that God didn't make anyone so He could put them in Hell because we are told that Hell was made for God's rebellious heavenly children, not for us! We forget that "redeemer" in the Old Testament means "kinsman-redeemer", someone who is close kin to those being redeemed. The only ones who could not be redeemed would be those who are not kin -- but Jesus is kin to all humanity, so all humanity gets redeemed. Point of correction: the Crucifixion was the victory; the Resurrection is just its fruit. The Crucifixion is the coronation, the Resurrection is the parade. In grad school we learned that the Greek αἰώνιος should be rendered "agewise", and an age lasts until its purpose has been completed. Thus if punishment has the purpose of turning people to Christ then however long that takes qualifies as an "age" for that person -- but the purpose of life with God is life with God, so the "age" during which we live with God can't end. If that is the case, then Augustine's argument from Matthew 25 fails.

  • @justin10292000
    @justin10292000 6 місяців тому

    Calvinism: God is cruel. Arminianism: God is weak. Trinitarian Restorationism (Evangelical Christian Universalism): God is Love.

  • @traildude7538
    @traildude7538 6 місяців тому

    Question: isn't apokatastasis a combination: apo + kata + stasis? How does it get from there to the meaning given here?

  • @traildude7538
    @traildude7538 6 місяців тому

    The first time I encountered Christian universalism was in university at a Campus Crusade for Christ Christmas Conference; it was an offshoot of a debate about free will versus predestination. The objection was raised that if God will save everyone then why have Campus Crusade for Christ? I'd learned ancient Greek already and set myself to searching the Greek New Testament on the subject, but then the pressure of classes and especially finals pushed the question out of my mind and I forgot about it for years. Then I encountered it in St. Gregory of Nyssa . . . and here I am thinking about it again!

  • @traildude7538
    @traildude7538 6 місяців тому

    The "reconciliation by judgment" argument sounds like something an accountant might come up with!

  • @michaelhawkins4005
    @michaelhawkins4005 6 місяців тому

    Carrion comfort!

  • @justin10292000
    @justin10292000 6 місяців тому

    Calvinism: God is cruel Arminianism: God is weak Trinitarian Restorationism: God is Love.

  • @albertito77
    @albertito77 6 місяців тому

    Why have you brought this heretic on?

  • @hispoiema
    @hispoiema 6 місяців тому

    What about the thought of the Jews being the elect who needed to be born again in order to bring God and salvation to the rest of us? And the uncircumcised Jews being not Israel who are of Israel but eventually all Israel being saved.

  • @edwardking1312
    @edwardking1312 7 місяців тому

    Less than 1% of the Bible is about the Afterlife 99.9% of Bible is not about the Afterlife

  • @edwardking1312
    @edwardking1312 7 місяців тому

    Now - present tense is the issue not the afterlife - less than 1% of Scripture is about the afterlife

  • @kensey007
    @kensey007 8 місяців тому

    This is really beautiful. I'm agnostic, but I have been a hard atheist with respect to more typical Christianity because I find it logically incoherent. Universalism solves nearly all objections I have including, for example, problems of divine hiddenness and religious confusion. Goes a long way in addressing the problem of suffering as well. And, as you frame it here, strong argument it is Biblical. Well done.

    • @diamondlife-gi7hg
      @diamondlife-gi7hg Місяць тому

      universalism wasnt condemned until 543 AD we know that origen believed in it in the 3rd century he was a prolific writer and theologian.

  • @brianbrodie8331
    @brianbrodie8331 8 місяців тому

    One question you must ask yourself is this. Do you think God will acknowledge or answer the last prayer of His dying son on the cross. Heres the prayer Father forgive them for they know not what they do.(them is those who rejected him) God either will or He won't? What do you think/believe likely? If God doesn't answer this pray, it would seem any prayer you pray would seem pretty well pointless. If you can work out the answer, you are well on the way to understanding what happened next at the cross. Surely love is not that hard to understand just read Matthew 5 I mean even the athiest or so called unbeliever understands what love is capable and not capable of, but ironically the Christian struggles with this. No wonder the church is held in contempt 😮😊 One fact I find the scripture clearly and explicitly deems is this: that you can not escape Gods' love anymore than you can escape His judgement 😊 This is not rocket science.

  • @JimmieJamOfTheDay
    @JimmieJamOfTheDay 8 місяців тому

    Everyone ends up with God in the end. Those who are punished are punished temporarily for not repenting (turning away from and living accordingly) before they are reconciled to God. That's my understanding.